Submitted by: Yasoda nandana Dasa
MAY 28th Room Conversation – 1977 Analysis
(“appointment tape” fraud)
On May 28th a committee of the GBC met in Srila Prabhupada’s room and asked various questions for
the future of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada’s intentions with regard to how initiations should be conducted
in his physical absence was clearly stated in these May 28th conversation with Satsvarupa Maharaja:
On May 28th a committee of the GBC met in Srila Prabhupada’s room and asked various questions for
the future of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada’s intentions with regard to how initiations should be conducted
in his physical absence was clearly stated in these May 28th conversation with Satsvarupa Maharaja:
Satsvarupa: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.”
Prabhupada: “Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas.”
Tamala Krsna: “Is that called ritvik-acharya?”
Prabhupada: “Ritvik yes.”
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru haia. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
Tamala Krsna: No, he’s asking that these ritvik-acaryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa. Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupada: They’re his disciple.
Tamala Krsna: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple. [falsified transcription, Srila prabhupadas says: “His grand disciple”]
granddisciple.mp3
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That’s clear.
Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer…
Prabhupada: When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.
—
Please Note: The tape conversation has been proven to have been doctored, but the fact remains that Srila Prabhupada says, “On my order” and “But by my order” and “When I order. ‘You become guru’.” The only order given so far was to be officiating or ritvik representatives of the acharya. This is clarified in the July 9th 1977 Newsletter to all GBC’s and temple presidents. Since the last part of this tape is so controversial we should remember that Srila Prabhupada never made changes by tape recording. Therefore the July 9th letter is the most important piece of evidence we have.
Analysis of the MAY 28th Conversation
Notes enclosed in [ ]
Notes enclosed in [ ]
Satsvarupa: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
[The question itself is note worthy. A specific word used, (especially) perhaps merely for the sake of form, breaks the question into two. “What about initiation etc. especially when you are no longer with us?” The two segments of the question where: (a) While you are in this weakened state, immobilized in Vrindavan. (b) While you are no longer with us. Srila Prabhupada answered that he would appoint 11 officiating Acharyas.]
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas.
[Srila Prabhupada clearly did NOT state “diksa-guru” nor “acarya” which is a direct repudiation of the successor diksa-guru accepting their own disciples senario in ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada says: “officiating acharyas”. This was immediately followed up by Tamal Krishnas clarification. He introduces the terminology “ritvik” and asked Srila Prabhupada whether officiating Acharya would refer to ritvik?]
Tamala Krishna: Is that called ritvik-acharya?
Note: Tamal Krishna equates “officiating acarya” with “ritvik-acharya” which is the second direct repudiation of the successor diksa-guru senario in ISKCON.
Prabhupada: Ritvik, yes.
[Please note the word ‘ritvik’ was introduced initially by Tamal Krishna while Srila Prabhupada himself chose to call this curious post “Officiating Acharya“. Readers are also reminded that “ritvik” was not an unknown term to Srila Prabhupada. Tamal who introduced the term seems to have had rather fixed ideas associated with this term or title and added behind the word Ritvik also the word Acharya. Srila Prabhupada replied to this insinuation only Ritvik, yes (WITHOUT the word Acharya) The meaning is: they are Ritviks, not Acharyas, but Ritvik representative of the Acharya Srila Prabhupada. This is also the second direct repudiation of the successor diksa-guru senario in ISKCON.]
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
[This is the third direct repudiation of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples accepting their own disciples in ISKCON.]
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
[This is the fourth direct repudiation of the successor diksa-guru senario in reply to Satsvarupa’s question.]
Tamala Krishna: No, he’s asking that these ritvik-acharyas, they’re officiating, giving diksha. Their… The people who they give diksha to, whose disciple are they?
[Here Srila Prabhupada ends his conversation with Satvarupa and replies to Tamal’s misunderstanding. Tamal’s misunderstanding is clearly evident as he repeats Satvarupa’s same question which was already clearly answered by Srila Prabhupada. Further, Tamal’s misunderstanding is clear in his saying that ritviks and officiating acaryas give diksa which they clearly don’t, as they merely are representing the uttama-adhikari diksa-guru. Tamal’s misconception of “diksa” and “diksa-guru” is that both diksa-guru and disciple must be physically present for diksa which clearly contradicts Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.]
Prabhupada: They’re his disciples.
*** Srila Prabhupada’s answer for whose disciples they are, is – as we have seen – the person “who is initiating”. The very next phrase spoken after this answer by Srila Prabhupada proves that Srila Prabhupada is here referring to the person “who is initiating” as being himself: “His granddisciple.” The “His” here can only be referring to Srila Prabhupada since it would be impossible for the ritviks, who are Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, to themselves have granddisciples. So Srila Prabhupada’s use of the pronoun “His” here proves not only that Srila Prabhupada does refer to himself in the 3rd person in this conversation, but also that he was referring to himself when he said “they’re his disciples – who is initiating.”
Tamala Krishna: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple
[*The sentence: “He is grand disciple” is purposely falsified by the GBC in their transcription.
On the audio tape Srila Prabhupada says: “His grand disciple“. This gives a complete different meaning.]
On the audio tape Srila Prabhupada says: “His grand disciple“. This gives a complete different meaning.]
* The very first transcript of the May 28th conversation provided to the movement was given in 1984 as an attachment to Ravindra’s Svarupa Das’s paper Under My Order. This transcript was said to have been “edited and checked by Jayadvaita Swami”, and clearly stated “His granddisciple”. Years later all official transcripts mysteriously changed this to “He is granddisciple”: in for example, BBT Conversations books (1990), Gurus and Initiation in ISKCON (1995), Disciple of My Disciple (1997), Prabhupada’s Order (1998), Prabhupada Vedabase “Folio”, (all editions including current). However, anyone who listens to the tape will hear that only ONE, not two, words are spoken by Srila Prabhupada before the word “granddisciple”, and, therefore, the original transcript provided was indeed the correct one in relation to this phrase. This part of the transcript can be heard here:
granddisciple.mp3
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That’s clear.
[Here Tamal draws his own conclusion and foolishly accepts only the sentence (“There’re his disciple.”) which he likes or understands. He ignores Srila Prabhupada’s clear answers to Satvarupa’s previous questions which repudiated the “disciples accepting their own disciples” senario in ISKCON four times and thus Tamal misses Prabhupada’s concluding statement as follows.]
Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer…
Prabhupada: When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.
[Here Srila Prabhupada clearly concludes his reply to Tamal and says that his disciples can become regular guru and accept their own disciples only when he orders them to. This clearly indicates that he did not yet give the specific order for his disciples to become regular (diksa) gurus and accept their own disciples in ISKCON in this meeting.
He already repeatedly confirmed this fact with his prior repudiation (four times) in reply to Satsvarupa’s original question on what the GBC were to do for 1st and 2nd initiations “when you no longer are with us” as already pointed out. So it is inconceivable that he changes his mind in replying to what is essentially the same question from Tamal vis-a vis, “Whose disciples are they?”. Tamal’s misunderstanding of this crucial meeting was later confirmed in the 1980 Topanga Canyon guru meeting. Unfortunately as secretary, his deviation was also written into the minutes of the May 28, 1977 meeting.]
He already repeatedly confirmed this fact with his prior repudiation (four times) in reply to Satsvarupa’s original question on what the GBC were to do for 1st and 2nd initiations “when you no longer are with us” as already pointed out. So it is inconceivable that he changes his mind in replying to what is essentially the same question from Tamal vis-a vis, “Whose disciples are they?”. Tamal’s misunderstanding of this crucial meeting was later confirmed in the 1980 Topanga Canyon guru meeting. Unfortunately as secretary, his deviation was also written into the minutes of the May 28, 1977 meeting.]
Tamal Krishna: “Actually Prabhupada never appointed any gurus, he appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement for the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus. […] Srila Prabhupada said: ‘All right. I will appoint so many …’ and he started to name them. He made it very clear that they are his disciples. At that point it was very clear in my mind that he were his disciples. […] You cannot show me anything on tape or in writing were Prabhupada says: ‘I appoint these eleven as gurus’ it does not exist. Because he never appointed any gurus. This is a myth.” (Tamala Krishna Goswami: Pyramid House Confession December 3rd 1980)
The May 28 audio conversation of Srila Prabhupada
In-Depth Analysis of the MAY 28th Conversation
“Srila Prabhupada intended his disciples to become
“regular Gurus” after he physically departed”.
(GBC resolution 409, 2004).
“Srila Prabhupada intended his disciples to become
“regular Gurus” after he physically departed”.
(GBC resolution 409, 2004).
The ritvik “problem”
The first part of the May 28th conversation states:
Satsvarupa: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.”
Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
Tamala Krsna: “Is that called rtvik-acarya?”
Prabhupada: “Rtvik, yes.”
Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
Tamala Krsna: “Is that called rtvik-acarya?”
Prabhupada: “Rtvik, yes.”
i) This question and answer exchange above establishes beyond doubt that Srila Prabhupada was going to appoint “officiating acharyas” to carry out initiations for when Srila Prabhupada was not present. And further that these officiating acharyas are also called ritviks.
ii) And then on July 9th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada did go on to appoint 11 individuals to conduct initiations in ISKCON, just as he said he would on May 28th, 1977. But the individuals he appointed were named ritviks, and they would only accept disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.
The above bald facts mean that Srila Prabhupada continues to remain diksa guru after his departure via the use of ritviks. Those opposed to this conclusion are stuck with accepting facts i) and ii) above, but need to somehow magically make the conclusion of these two facts do a 180-degree turn and mean the exact opposite!
The “guru appointment” fix
Ritviks are magically transmogrified into diksa gurus by manipulating the last part of the conversation below:
Tamala Krsna: “No, he’s asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa. Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?”
Prabhupada: “They’re his disciple.”
Tamala Krsna: “They’re his disciple.”
Prabhupada: “Who is initiating. His grand-disciple.”
Satsvarupa: “Yes.”
Tamala Krsna: “That’s clear.”
Satsvarupa: “Then we have a question concer… “
Prabhupada: “When I order you become guru he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
Prabhupada: “They’re his disciple.”
Tamala Krsna: “They’re his disciple.”
Prabhupada: “Who is initiating. His grand-disciple.”
Satsvarupa: “Yes.”
Tamala Krsna: “That’s clear.”
Satsvarupa: “Then we have a question concer… “
Prabhupada: “When I order you become guru he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
“They’re his disciple”
The exchange being referred to which includes the phrase above is as follows:
Tamala Krsna: “No, he’s asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa. Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?”
Prabhupada: “They’re his disciple.”
Tamala Krsna: “They’re his disciple.”
Prabhupada: “Who is initiating… His granddisciple.”
(This original sentence of Srila was falsified in the GBC transcription, reding: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple. They added: “is“)
Prabhupada: “They’re his disciple.”
Tamala Krsna: “They’re his disciple.”
Prabhupada: “Who is initiating… His granddisciple.”
(This original sentence of Srila was falsified in the GBC transcription, reding: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple. They added: “is“)
There is an indisputable fact regarding the above exchange – Srila Prabhupada’s answer is in the 3rd person:
“They’re his disciple.”
Srila Prabhupada does not say “they are my disciple”, but neither does he say “they are the ritvik’s disciple”. Rather, Srila Prabhupada only answers by stating what the owner of the disciple DOES, rather than WHO he is – whether himself or the ritviks, and that is:
“They’re his disciple – who is initiating.”
Hence the fact that Srila Prabhupada answered the question in the 3rd person cannot be at issue here. We must simply see the answer he gave.
“They’re his disciple.”
Srila Prabhupada does not say “they are my disciple”, but neither does he say “they are the ritvik’s disciple”. Rather, Srila Prabhupada only answers by stating what the owner of the disciple DOES, rather than WHO he is – whether himself or the ritviks, and that is:
“They’re his disciple – who is initiating.”
Hence the fact that Srila Prabhupada answered the question in the 3rd person cannot be at issue here. We must simply see the answer he gave.
Answer already given
Before we see the answer Srila Prabhupada gave, we can note that he had already just answered the same question. Immediately preceding this exchange, where Srila Prabhupada answers “they’re his disciple”, Srila Prabhupada is asked the same question directly – are they “your disciples” – rather than indirectly – “whose disciple are they?”
And Srila Prabhupada clearly answers that the disciples are his:
Satsvarupa: “So they may also be considered your disciples.”
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes, they are disciples. Why consider…who?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes, they are disciples. Why consider…who?”
This allows us to conclude that Srila Prabhupada responds appropriately depending on how the question is asked – directly when asked directly, and in the 3rd person when asked indirectly – and that his answer to this question is that the disciples belong to him.
Bearing these two facts in mind, we can now move on to the answer Srila Prabhupada immediately gives again to the same question regarding the ownership of disciples, and already know that this answer must be the same as the one he has already just given (i.e. he is the owner of the disciples), lest he instantly contradicts himself!
Srila Prabhupada’s answer
Srila Prabhupada’s answer for whose disciples they are, is – as we have seen – the person “who is initiating”. The very next phrase spoken after this answer by Srila Prabhupada proves that Srila Prabhupada is here referring to the person “who is initiating” as being himself:
“His granddisciple.”*
The “His” here can only be referring to Srila Prabhupada since it would be impossible for the ritviks, who are Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, to themselves have granddisciples.
So Srila Prabhupada’s use of the pronoun “His” here proves not only that Srila Prabhupada does refer to himself in the 3rd person in this conversation, but also that he was referring to himself when he said “they’re his disciples – who is initiating.”
* The very first transcript of the May 28th conversation provided to the movement was given in 1984 as an attachment to Ravindra’s Svarupa Das’s paper Under My Order. This transcript was said to have been “edited and checked by Jayadvaita Swami”, and clearly stated “His granddisciple”. Years later all official transcripts mysteriously changed this to “He is granddisciple”: in for example, BBT Conversations books (1990), Gurus and Initiation in ISKCON (1995), Disciple of My Disciple (1997), Prabhupada’s Order (1998), Prabhupada Vedabase “Folio”, (all editions including current). However, anyone who listens to the tape will hear that only ONE, not two, words are spoken by Srila Prabhupada before the word “granddisciple”, and, therefore, the original transcript provided was indeed the correct one in relation to this phrase. This part of the transcript can be heard here:
granddisciple.mp3
“His granddisciple”
But how can Srila Prabhupada be speaking of “granddisciples” at all, unless he is ordering his disciples to become gurus who will initiate their own disciples? Srila Prabhupada goes on to clarify that granddisciples will only emerge when diksa gurus are actually ordered by himself –
“His granddisciple…when I order you become guru he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple.”
– with “disciple of my disciple” meaning the same as “granddisciple”.
Yet there is no record of Srila Prabhupada having ordered any diksa gurus, either in the May 28th conversation, or elsewhere, with only ritvik priests being ordered in the July 9th directive.
“Officiating acharya”
We end with debunking the ludicrous theory that an officiating acharya is just another word for diksa guru, and therefore when Srila Prabhupada was appointing ritviks, he was actually appointing diksa gurus! In the opening exchange of the May 28th conversation, Srila Prabhupada equates the term “officiating acarya” with “ritvik”:
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
Tamala Krsna: “Is that called rtvik-acarya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Rtvik, yes.”
Tamala Krsna: “Is that called rtvik-acarya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Rtvik, yes.”
The GBC have so far presented four different transcripts of this brief conversation, and a world-renowned forensic expert hired by them said the tape exhibited “strong signs suggestive of falsification” (Norman I. Perle, American Board of Recorded Evidence, September 22,1997).
Even from the falsified transcript of the conversation, stll we can understand, that Srila Prabhupada nominated officiating ritviks, representative of the acharya Srila Prabhupada.
And 6 weeks later, on July 9th, Srila Prabhupada actually goes on to appoint these “officiating acarya/ritviks”, and it clearly states there that those initiated will be disciples of Srila Prabhupada only. There is no mention in the July 9th directive of these ritviks initiating their own disciples. Nor is this stated in the May 28th conversation (as we have just seen). In Srila Prabhupadas letter of July 9th, we can read: The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has acceted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
As anyone can see, when asked by Satsvarupa about: “initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us”, Srila Prabhupada says: “I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.” When asked if officiating acaryas are the same as ritviks, Srila Prabhupada answers: “Ritvik. Yes.” Therefore it is clear he wanted initiations to be carried out by “ritviks“, “particularly” for after his departure, not successor diksa Gurus.
How stupid people can be not to understand? Satsvarupa questions: “…initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. Srila Prabhupada answers to the question: (in the future, particularly at that time when I am no longer with you) I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas. Tamal Krishna confirms this by asking: is this called ritvik-acarya? whereupon Srila Prabhupada replies: Ritvik, yes.
So it clearly states: in the future, particularly at that time when Srila Prabhupada is no longer with us, he will recommend some to act as officiating acaryas, to act as ritvik representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations (on HIS behalf). The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book. (Letter to: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents)
CONCLUSION
Srila Prabhupada’s specific instructions for carrying out initiations in Iskcon after his physical disappearance as asked directly of him by his Governing Board Commissioners on May 28, 1977 was that he would soon recommend some of his disciples to act as officiating acaryas or ritviks representatives. In the following week on June 4, 1977 he wrote in his will that Iskcon directors would have to be his duly initiated disciples. This also confirms his no change “henceforward” order sent to all GBCs and temple presidents the following month (July 9, 1977) proclaiming his 11 chosen ritvik representatives that would initiate future disciples on his behalf even after his physical disappearance. These three seperate instructions are Srila Prabhupada’s actual replies to the direct question from his GBC disciples in charge of ISKCON management on how they should carry on initiations. Over the next 4 months until his physical disappearance, Srila Prabhupada never changed these orders either written or spoken.
• He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as ritvik – representative of the acarya,
• the above eleven senior devotees acting as His (Prabhupadas) representative.
• The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad,
• The name of a newly initiated disciple should be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
• “…the process for initiation to be followed in the future.” (July 11th)
• “…continue to become ritvik and act on my charge.” (July 19th)
• “…continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.” (July 31th)
• the above eleven senior devotees acting as His (Prabhupadas) representative.
• The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad,
• The name of a newly initiated disciple should be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
• “…the process for initiation to be followed in the future.” (July 11th)
• “…continue to become ritvik and act on my charge.” (July 19th)
• “…continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.” (July 31th)
Srila Prabhupada: “All my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I, one, may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It is not that I give an order, ‘Here is the next leader.’ Anyone who follows the previous leadership is the leader…. All of my disciples are leaders, as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, you can also lead. But you don’t want to follow. Leader means one who is a first class disciple. Evam param parapraptam. One who is following is perfect.” (Srila Prabhupada, Back to Godhead magazine, Vol. 13, No. 1-2)
Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja: “You have selected 11 gurus”
Srila Prabhupada: “I have not selected. I have appointed 11 ritviks”
Please also see: Further Articles
May 28th, 1977 “appointment tape” fraud
May 28th, 1977 “appointment tape” fraud