Subject: Rupanuga vada khandana – refutation of the Rupanuga dasa interpretation of October 18, 1977 conversation with Srila Prabhupada
Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation. CC Adi 12.9 Purport):
Reply to Rupanuga dasa
Actual text of conversation with Srila Prabhupada in his room, October 18, 1977, Vrndavana, India
Srila Prabhupāda: So, you are taking care of that conveyance?
Tamāla Krnsa: Yes, we are, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Jayapatākā: Because you are a paramahamsa, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are seeing everyone else as surrendered to Krsna. But only by your mercy, you are forcing us to serve Krsna.
Srila Prabhupāda: Hare Krsna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?
Tamāla Krsna: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.
Srila Prabhupāda: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?
Tamāla Krsna: Yes. Actually… Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Srila Prabhupāda: So I think Jayapatākā can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.
Tamāla Krsna: Yes.
Srila Prabhupāda: So, deputies, Jayapatākā’s name was there?
Bhagavān: It is already on there, Śrīla Prabhupāda. His name was on that list.
Srila Prabhupāda: So I depute him to do this at Māyāpura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamāla Krsna: Stopped doing what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Srila Prabhupāda: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?
Girirāja: It’s clear.
Srila Prabhupāda: You have got the list of the names?
Tamāla Krsna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Srila Prabhupāda: And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.
Girirāja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.
Srila Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm?
Girirāja: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have described to us, so that he’ll be satisfied with this arrangement.
Srila Prabhupāda: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven’t got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?
Girirāja: Yes.
Srila Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varnyam mayā srstam [Bhagavad Gita. 4.13]. Unless in the human society the varnāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Srila Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme-useless. Sāttvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam… From Brahma-samhitā?
Rupanuga dasa statement: A Bengali gentleman has come from New York seeking initiation from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada has already deputed his ritvik acaryas and he thinks Jayapataka should do the initiation.
Note: Srila Prabhupada has not specifically told anyone to be a diksa-guru, only to act as officiating representative as per his July 9th letter. Srila Prabhupada is only reconfirming what he had already established in his earlier directive of July 9th 1977 letter.
Rupanuga dasa statement: The key sentences here are not the ones containing the word “depute,” but rather the following: “I stop for the time being,” “And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again.”
Note: Classic word jugglery. After Srila Prabhupada has emphasized the word deputee in five different grammatical combinations, we are now being informed that this not the key point.
Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis is not only three times, but five times.
It is common understanding that in Vedic literatures, to emphasize an important point, it is done three times.
Srila Prabhupada says: “anything is uttered three times—“do it, do it, do it”—one should understand that this is meant to indicate great stress on a fact…” Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.9.20:
This verse repeats the word ‘eva’ [‘certainly’] three times for emphasis, and it also three times repeats ‘harer nāma’ [‘the holy name of the Lord’], just to make common people understand.
PURPORT
To emphasize something to an ordinary person, one may repeat iit three times, just as one might say, “You must do this! You must do this! You must do this! Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Unrevised original edition) Adi-Lila 17.23
“This verse repeats the word ‘eva’ [‘certainly’] three times for emphasis, and it also three times repeats ‘harer nāma’ [‘the holy name of the Lord’], just to make common people understand.
Srila Prabhupada: “…The Vedic literature, for emphasis, clearly states three times that in this age of Kali—kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva—there is no other alternative, no other alternative, no other alternative than harer nāma Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.21.6
Note: Srila Prabhupada uses the word deputy five times referring to his prior nomination on July 9th 1977 of 11 officiating representatives to carry initiations on his behalf.
11 chosen devotees were only officiating representatives.
Srila Prabhupada’s repeated use of the word deputee five times is the key point of this conversation.
Rupanuga dasa’s statement:
“And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again.” “I stop for the time being” indicates that the ritvik appointments made three months earlier were necessary due to Srila Prabhupada’s condition, but he considered them temporary—to last until his own initiations could begin again. In other words, “for the time being” indicates Srila Prabhupada’s expectation of taking up initiations again in due course. “And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again,” indicates his hopeful intention to take up initiation duties again in the future.
Notes: More speculative interpretation. Nowhere did Srila Prabhupada has ever said that the following: ”the ritvik appointments made three months earlier were necessary due to Srila Prabhupada’s condition, but he considered them temporary” In other words, “for the time being” indicates Srila Prabhupada’s expectation of taking up initiations again in due course.
Fact: it is well known that Srila Prabhupada;’s health at that time was not in the best condition. Although he is always fully transcendental and above the modes of nature, he had been bed ridden for several months, and his health had been deteriorating.
Fact: July 9th 1977. Srila Prabhupada had put in place an officiating representative system by his letter of July 1977. And he again reconfirmed his original intention of setting up an officiating representative system.
Fact: July 19th 1977.
Srila Prabhupāda: So let us artificial activity. I think this is a nice arrangement.
Devotee: Upendra and I could see it for the last… [break]
Srila Prabhupāda: And nobody is going to disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to become rttvik and act on my charge. People are becoming sympathetic there. The place is very nice.
Devotee: Yeah. He says, “The introduction of Bhagavad-gītā has been translated into Tamil, and I will have the second chapter done next. Then publish a small booklet for immediate distribution.”
Srila Prabhupāda: Very good.
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, July 19, 1977, Vrndavana, India.
Srila Prabhupada is only indicating that his health is not good enough to carry on the ceremonials of the fire sacrifice etc. and that his deputies can do this on behalf, initiating his disciples by acting as his deputee representatives.
Srila Prabhupada was still and is still giving divyam-jnanam, the essence of diksa, and accepting disciples. All he is asking his disciples to do in this conversation is for his deputees, officiating representatives is to take up the process of (i) chosing the names of the new initiate; (ii) chanting on the japa beads on behalf of Srila Prabhupada; (iii) perform the fire sacrifice of the initiation on his behalf.
Srila Prabhupada always used specific terminology.
–There is no mistake in Srila Prabhupada’s rhetorical arrangements.
Sri Caitanya-Caitamta says:
“Mistakes, illusions, cheating and defective perception do not occur in the sayings of the authoritative sages.
Purport
…But there cannot be mistakes, illusion, cheating or imperfect perception in the words of liberated sages… Śrīla Vyāsadeva revealed these statements after perfect realization, and therefore they are perfect, for liberated sages like Vyāsadeva never commit errors in their rhetorical arrangements… Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Unrevised 1975 edition- 1975 Adi-lila 2.86
–Srila Prabhupada’s direction is the same s Krsna’s direction.
Srila Prabhupada says: “… The spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord…” Bhagavad-gita As It Is, (Unrevised 1972 edition) 10.3.
– Srila Prabhupada never contradicts himself.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. So contradiction means imperfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge means who sticks to his principles. That is perfect knowledge. One who does not stick to his original proposal, his knowledge is imperfect. Philosophy Discussions: Discussions with Syamasundara dasa: Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz
If Srila Prabhupada had intended for his disciples to be full-fledged diksa-gurus by this conversation, why did he not use the specific words “diksa-guru” or acarya? He only used the word deputee. He was precise, and simply reconfirmed the last previous statement he had made on July 19, 1977: “continue to become a ritvik and act on my charge”.
Srila Prabhupada does not use the word (i) diksa-guru, (ii) successor guru, (ii) zonal guru, (iv) appointed guru, etc, he clearly uses the word deputy to emphasize that these 11 chosen devotees were only officiating representatives.
If Srila Prabhupada had intended to amend, modify, change, supplement or reverse his written directive (His “Final Order”) of July 9, 1977, “these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada… the newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada” and his reconfirmation on July 19, 1977 “continue to become a ritvik and act on my charge”, why did He not use the specific words diksa-guru or appointed guru, or successor guru or acarya?
List of names.
Srila Prabhupāda: You have got the list of the names?
Tamāla Krsna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda
Rupanuga dasa conveniently avoids one of the most important point in this whole conversation: the list of names.
And what is that list? The July 9th 1977 written directive approved by Srila Prabhupada, specifying the direct capacity in which the officiating representatives were to continue the officiating service to be done on His behalf.
- Srila Prabhupada designated these 11 devotees to act as ritviks and did not indicate that after his departure they would be empowered to act as guru-acharyas, it must be accepted that ritvik representative was the authority he saw them fit to handle
- His last written words were “act as rittvik representative of the acarya”. That is His order, his arrangement for continuation of the disciplic succession.
- It has now become a fashion for the members and supporters of the self-appointed acarya party to quote Srila Prabhupada to contradict and defy Srila Prabhupada.
- Srila Prabhupada made his intentions and directions very clear in His directives of July 9 and July 19th 1977. There is no need for new interpretations.
A few historical notes.
Outside advice?
Rupanuga dasa and the GBC went to seek outside advice and clarification from Gaudiya Matha advisors in 1978.
Srila Prabhupada differs:
“You should not give attention to any outsider’s advice because they are completely unfit to give you advice..” SPL Sunday, March 9, 1969
” There is no need whatsoever for outside instruction.” SPL to Gurukrpa and Yasoda nandana dasa, December 1973
“… he never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya . If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned…”
“…So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore, we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually, amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya…”
So, Sridhar Maharaja was responsible for disobeying…
“We shall not make the same mistake in our ISKCON camp…
” They [Gaudiya matha] are very competent to harm our natural progress” SP to Rupanuga dasa, April 1974
“…I have also read specifically your articles on the matter of acaryas, wherein on the 14th Paragraph I see the acharya shall be entitled to nominate in writing his successive acharya. But we do not find any record where our Srila Prabhupada nominated any acharya after Him. Different persons have interpreted on this point, and every one of our Godbrothers are acting as acharya, so this is a controversial point which I do not wish to enter into while we are proposing for cooperation …” August: Letter to: Swami B. S. Bhagavata Maharaja — Los Angeles 21 August, 19
So where is the record of the so-called acarya appointment allegedly done by Srila Prabhupada and propagated by Rupanuga das and the GBC in 1978?
Clear as Mud?
Fact: The GBC and Rupanuga went to the Gaudiya Matha Nabadvipa advisor in March of 1978 to seek advice and clarification about the guru issue and how it should be implemented in ISKCON.
Rupanuga dasa, in knowledge of the above-referenced clear warnings by Srila Prabhupada, did not warn and alert devotees and the leaders of ISKCON about Srila Prabhupada’s prophetic letter. He went right along with the concocted acarya appointment. But now he wants all of us to believe that he understood Srila Prabhupada’s real intentions in October of 1977! Why did Rupanuga dasa and the GBC go to the Gaudiya Matha advisor, for clarification for something they now claim they had understood all along?
If, according to Rupanuga dasa and company, everything was so clear to them in October of 1978, as per the following conversation: Srila Prabhupāda: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not? Giirirāja: It’s clear, then why did they jump to Nabadvipa to seek clarification from an outside advisor to seek clarification of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions? How did everything become so unclear within just a few months that they felt that had to go to the Gaudiya Matha advisor to seek clarification? Another unresolved mystery!
Convenient Amnesia.
Srila Prabhupada had already warned Rupanuga dasa about the history of the Gaudiya Matha in April of 1974. Had Rupanuga dasa conveniently forgotten the April 28, 1974 personal letter from Srila Prabhupada and His warnings about Sridhar Maharaja’s role in destroying the Gaudiya Matha and their unauthorized acarya appointment?
Consultation with Higher Authorities?
Further, in March of 1978, at the Mayapur festival, Rupanuga dasa and the GBC issued a position paper to explain the process of future initiations for ISKCON. Under the title of the position paper was placed “In Consultation with Higher Authorities”. So why did Rupanuga dasa and company have to consult with “Higher Authorities” in March of 1978, just a few months after they had allegedly understood Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions in the matter of initiations in October of 1977? More unresolved mysteries!
And who are these so-called higher authorities? And when did Srila Prabhupada ever instruct us to go consulting other higher authorities than Him for the conduct of the missionary activities of His movement?
1978 Guru appointment hoax.
Following the Mayapur festival in March of 1978, a worldwide propaganda campaign was orchestrated by Rupanuga dasa and the GBC to attempt to convince the ISKCON devotees that Srila Prabhupada had appointed 11 gurus who were his true successors, that these 11 were pure devotees, uttama adhikaris, and that Srila Prabhupada had personally appointed these pure devotee diksa-gurus in May and July of 1977, as his true successors pure devotees acaryas.
Mythology Revival.
The secretary himself admitted the guru appointment myth in December of 1980 in Topanga Canyon, California. He clearly admitted in a quasi-public forum that the idea that Srila Prabhupada had appointed 11 gurus was a myth and that Srila Prabhupada had never appointed any gurus.
It should be noted that these important conversations with His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada were not released by the GBC for many years after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. Why not?
This new grammatical jugglery and interpretation is simply another attempt to revive the same old Guru appointment myth in a different format and avoid the order of the acarya Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada did not use the word diksa guru, acarya, appointed guru, appointed successor, etc He was very consistent by use of the word deputee in five different grammatical variations.
Historical facts.
By June of 1977, Srila Prabhupada had already removed himself from the choosing of the names of the new initiates, the chanting on the beads, the performing of the fire sacrifice but he was still the diksa-guru of the new initiates and was to remain the diksa-guru. Sri Prabhupada never gave the order to any of these 11 or 111 disciples to actually be diksa-gurus in the last few months of 1977. The current Rupanuga dasa interpretation and all of the post 1977 GBC interpretations of these various conversations are simply an attempt at mythology revival and avoiding the order of the acarya, as per his clear directive of July 9th 1977.
When was Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th 1977 order changed or modified by Srila Prabhupada himself? When was the specific order to any of his disciples to be diksa-guru ever given after May 28 1977?
It is a fact that Rupanuga dasa and company’s post 1977 propaganda campaign throughout ISKCON, coupled with the GBC‘s iron fisted approach, conveyed myth and falsehood that the 11 had been appointed by Srila Prabhupada as diksa-gurus?
While it is certainly noble of Rupanuga dasa to enlighten us with his new current interpretation, it should not be forgotten that he was one of the original GBCs who vociferously supported and preached the appointment hoax and myth for many years.
While this new interpretation after 32 years seems to be an interesting pious belief, can he now publicly answer as to when these original 11 were ever appointed or selected by Srilla Prabhupada as diksa-gurus When? Where? How?
Has anything been learned from the post 1936 and post 1977 appointment guru fiasco and the Maha-bhagavata assembly line of the GBC?
Srila Prabhupada had already warned a few months earlier about the dreaded personal ambition disease that destroyed the Gaudiya Matha:
Srila Prabhupada warns about the result of manufacturing?
Result of suppressing Guru.
Result of ambition to take the place of guru.
Result of suppressing Guru.
Result of ambition to take the place of guru.
Srila Prabhupada: We haven’t got to manufacture. To manufacture ideas is troublesome. Why should we take the trouble? And as soon as you want to manufacture something to my…., that is DANGEROUS. ...That you are singing every day, “what our guru has said, that is our life and soul.” …As soon as this POISON will come-suppress guru and I become Brahman-everything FINISHED. Spiritual life is finished. Gaudiya Matha finished, …VIOLATED the orders of Guru Maharaja. …And as soon as you manufacture, fall down. This manufacturing idea is very, very dangerous in spiritual life. …Our mission is to serve bhakta visesa and live with devotees. NOT THAT YOU TAKE THE PLACE OF GURU. THAT IS NONSENSE, VERY DANGEROUS. Then everything will be spoiled. As soon as you become AMBITIOUS to TAKE THE PLACE of GURU-gurusuh nara matih. That is MATERIAL DISEASE. April 1977 Bombay, India
“So if you are actually, perfectly carrying out the orders of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, then you are preaching. Otherwise you will do wrongly, mislead. Don’t do that. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah . If you remain blind, don’t try to lead other blind men. That is misleading. First of all open your eyes. Everything is there. Nobody can do anything whimsically. If you do whimsically, concoctedly, that will be failure. It will not be effective.
(Conversations with Srila Prabhupada, 2 May, 1976, Fiji):
(Conversations with Srila Prabhupada, 2 May, 1976, Fiji):
Srila Prabhupada warns about proceeding on the wrong platform.
What will be the result of the wrong platform?
“So, on the wrong platform you may go-go forward more and more-but it will be dismantled, because it is wrong.” Lecture 6-5-74
“So, on the wrong platform you may go-go forward more and more-but it will be dismantled, because it is wrong.” Lecture 6-5-74
Srila Prabhupada warns about contradictory philosophy.
DISCIPLE: One day they say one thing. One day they say something else.
PRABHUPADA: That means rascal. Room Conversation 2-23-75
Srila Prabhupada explains how will questions be answered?
Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered. (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)
What will be the result of the wrong platform?
“So, on the wrong platform you may go-go forward more and more-but it will be dismantled, because it is wrong.” Lecture 6-5-74
DISCIPLE: One day they say one thing. One day they say something else.
PRABHUPADA: That means rascal. Room Conversation 2-23-75
“If you cannot express, if you do not understand. Simply people wants jugglery of words, they don’t want substance. They don’t want substance. That is the difficulty in the mod…, in the present age.” Lectures: Philosophy Discussions: Discussions with Hayagriva dasa: Karl Marx
It is interesting to note that Rupanuga dasa did not challenge the following article when Sridhar Maharaja was exposed.
This article covers proof of the Ritvik initiation system of formality and the six accompanying articles in depth: